do you SUFFER from racism?

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Permalink Reply by Ronnie Wolzinski on June 5, 2008 at 2:35pm

I think if we live in democratic societies we can be protected by democratic law and if that is the case we can
forget the stigma of race and go and be a succesful individual. In this case our bounderies are decided by us if they are reasonable.
In non democratic societies the law doesnt protect everyone to the same degree.

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Permalink Reply by Efsun on June 5, 2008 at 3:35pm

i'm sure you mean really democratic countries - which are only utopias(in my opinion).
otherwise, the films and the books i mentioned above were all produced in supposedly democratic countries - which use racism as a secret weapon to keep going.

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Permalink Reply by Ronnie Wolzinski on June 5, 2008 at 4:04pm

There is little pure in any political system including democracy but democracy is a work in progress and does have checks and balances to offset the imperfections. I believe in the free media and even though most have some political leanings generally the system is open for self analysation.
The history and tradition of a country is there too so things do not change so quickly.Still in the US (another imperfect democracy) Obama is a real possibility and will help America go one step further as it will also reflect in the way even the more conservative aspects of America see the blacks.
I havent seen the films or read the books above but I do believe in the democratic process as it is presented in the west.America is far from perfect as is Europe as is every other democracy but when you still see tribalism around the world and its accepted as part of the culture and democracy is held under a magnifying glass there is a huge difference. I am not a romantic when it comes to society.I see it for the way it is.
Often democracy is guilty of racism and also guilty of offering minorities a cheap ticket to equality but responsibility is a huge aspect of democratic life.
I agree that the government should have such adjusting ideas like affirmative action which allows the minority
some room to grow but also it has to insist on responsibility too. Too often this aspect is forgotten when the pundits are observing the state of affairs of a democratic society for fear of being politically incorrect but there are many black conservatives who would agree with the view that along with help the black society needs to take responsibility (Im not picking out blacks specifically here but just promoting the idea of equality but with responsibility)

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Permalink Reply by Efsun on June 5, 2008 at 4:42pm

well, apart from the fact that minorities are, to some[= a very tiny] extent, responsible for the state they are in; i'm not sure that i agree that democracy is a progressing system which betters itself, when it comes to the idea of "the other". as i suggested before, i personally believe that "the other" has always been the most crucial weapon any system (including democracy) uses. with the use of "the other" (the threat/rival), the system finds itself a way to organize/deceive/abuse/scare/threaten/etc. people so that the people will exclude/fight/kill/etc. "the other" in order to keep the status quo.

thus, any system (whether it is perfectly/imperfectly democratic, or not democratic at all) in any region of the world uses this idea of "the other" (racism, in this case) to stay alive.

briefly, i am irritated by this hostile point of view. because i truly believe that everybody is of the same element (maybe you call it God, or The Holy Spirit, or whatever..) and, of course, i'm not the first person to think this way. because i imagine mankind, like matthew arnold once did, as coral islands which seem devided but are unified in the depths.

and because i believe these but see and experience otherwise, i suffer from racism - or generally, this idea of "the other".

aren't i a hopeless HI? =D

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Permalink Reply by Ronnie Wolzinski on June 6, 2008 at 1:14pm

Democracy doesnt use racism.It is against philosophies that are fundamentally against it and often uses non democratic means to fight such adversaries.
How do you feel you are being victimized?
Scapegoats have been the sad part of the negative side of human envy and hate throughout history but in democratic societies today civil rights is upheld and the media and watchdogs make sure of that.
If you think others are being vistimized,I mean an outside source then you must ask why they are.Is there philosophy a threat????
And in your specific case what is your experience?

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Permalink Reply by Efsun on June 6, 2008 at 5:34pm

i do not know where you live and you don't see people being ignored/excluded.

i'm not the minority, but still i feel bad when i think about it: people being cursed because they're kurdish/armenian/wearing head scarves/not wearing head scarves/beggars..etc.

do tell me: haven't you ever witnessed anyone excluded from the community? if you have, didn't you feel sad that you're the majority and there's nothing you can do to make things right - except to talk about it and then you become a minority in the end?

don't you worry about the state of the humanity when you see some fascist posters(on which there are hands of black people trying to reach for the certificates of citizenship, and on the foreground there's a "no" in red and capitals) before election in switzerland?

or when you see the news about belgium? or about kenya? or about china/tibet?

i hope it's enough to tell you about what I experience - I, being a part of humanity...

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Permalink Reply by Ronnie Wolzinski on June 7, 2008 at 12:55am

I happen to live in Canada,a truly multicultural country but was born in the UK. Europe is very different.It has a long history of racism and now has pretty well gone the other way politically although locally the police and authourities can be racist(in Europe) On the world political stage,Europe is a firm advocate of civil rights.
Now when I say that it doesnt absolve any citizen of being responsible.
Immigrants bring their cultures with them and often they have lived under very different rules and also there is a tendancy to do whatever it takes to survive,sometimes by illegal means,so in those cases we often hear charges of "Racism!!" for those that dont abide by local laws.
Efsun where do you live and what specific situations have you seen?

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Permalink Reply by Efsun on June 7, 2008 at 1:05pm

Canada explains it all to me... I don't know much about that country, but still I know a little to understand what makes you so "optimistic" about politics, media, etc.

And I'm afraid I don't believe that it is the "outsider" who brings with him/her the troubles so that he/she is to blame for the consequences. In most countries, regulations related to job oppotunities are really harsh, they don't offer immigrants many oppotunities they offer to their own citizens. On the one hand, this is for the benefit of the citizens of that country: this way they do not lose their jobs because of a stranger. On the other hand, immigrants are forced to live in certain regions determined by the law(e.g in France) for example, apart from the fact that they cannot work in equal conditions with a citizen.

I understand that you truly believe in what is written on paper (law, theory, regulations, free media, and so on...) And you live in a country which is closest to a utopia.

There are a lot of exceptions all around the world, and in my previous message, I gave two examples from Europe, the others were from Africa, Asia, and my country, Turkey. In Kenya, for example, it is not like what you explain: immigrants and such. Or in Turkey, it's not because some people have come from other countries. We've been living on this part of the world together for more than a thousand years. And still people cannot stand one another.

My intention to start this discussion was not to talk about politics, because it twists the truth most of the time. I only wanted people to share what they feel about racism, and what they experience in their own countries. I wanted examples, other than the theories about what causes racism.

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Permalink Reply by Ronnie Wolzinski on June 8, 2008 at 3:23am

Politics aside,I am Jewish. Jews have been outsiders in many countries but we have a very strong centre within us that is community based.
We know racism.I suffered it in England as a child.
So?
It takes time for immigrants to become part of the society in which they live.
Jews have foght for civil rights for a long time.They know what racism is.
My family have known it.
In North America its not like that,we are all immigrants.

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Permalink Reply by Kaboom! on September 4, 2008 at 9:03pm

Hmm...I grew up in SE Ohio town and am half Mexican. I know a bit about racism.
And well..I am in control of my life and how I feel and how I let others effect me.

It is interesting. Someone asked me if I had ever dated a black man. I have.

I say what I said at first...and I feel and try to live that. But when asked that question I caught myself at least wondering if I was being asked as a judgment. I would like to be where I don't even care if someone asks me something like that...I mean not care on any level.

But for the biggest part, I am not going to feel guilty or bad about who I am or about someone else and their issues with other people.

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Permalink Reply by LowYenSoom on November 22, 2008 at 3:47pm

racist will only stop when people can open up their mind, by understanding each other differences and live with it.

is there a day when people will know the only meaning of race is only as competition but not etnics?

i don't know, but it start in you.

no matter what a racist say, you can just ignore it.this is because a people will become racist when .....
1 he/she is jealous
2 he/she is not intelligent enough(emm i mean s**p*d)
3 he/she is overego(cocky)


these racist, the best way to eliminate them is by winning them, bashing their head by getting a better grade,shoiw them you are not the weak one........

we all are equal, we are made up of cell..

and no one should ever discriminate us !!because we all are winners!!!!!!!we fought a war before we even get birth!

for the one who are racist?hmmm, i felt pity for you, you dont have the opportunity to know us more....

sorry for any rudeness... :)

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Permalink Reply by Allissa on March 30, 2009 at 12:27am

i think everyone is alittle racist. i know i feel weird around other people who aren't my color, maybe its because i went to an all african american school when i was younger, but i do believe everyone suffer from racism.

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